Why is Guidepost Solutions now involved? Reformed(TM): Christ is thrown under the bus and there is only CALVIN! These tenets include, An emphasis on three foundational covenants: redemption, works, and grace An emphasis on the continuity between the Old and New Testament FWIW, I dont consider any Arminian (see link to chart above) a non-believer. @ JeffB: I even like some mean Calvinists. The promises are over the top. Accept that they believe in a God of love even if you do not know how they get there. I disagree on some points with everyone I respect. Would really like to read Against Calvinism, as Im still sorting through the havoc that Calvinism caused in my own spiritual life (or, at least, the version of it I latched on to). If you had simply read the Bible, you would know that you are filled with the lies of the devil! In fact, I would go so far as to say I think its unbiblical. My only reason for defending Calvinism here is because I want the focus not to be on Soteriology, but on fighting abuse. God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.. However, there are a lot of us (from Liturgical Protestant churches, as well as the RCC, Orthodox churches, the German/Dutch anabaptist churches etc.) I dont want to convince anyone of a certain brand of Christianity. But something has changed in the last number of years. It feels good to be in a healthy spiritual state again. Charles . Neither is TULIP. The reformed assume the posture that they alone safeguard Gods honor. Rather, I am encouraging those that may be suffering under a Calvinista doctrine that it is OK sometimes to say I dont know. I can completely understand why people would want to flee from that garbage- I want to flee from it too. Because only THEY have the right interpretive assumptions. These are things that we can work on together, no matter our view on election. A secondary cause is always subservient to the primary cause, which is God. Probably originated with Calvinists during the Reformation Wars or their descendants the Puritans; as an answer to the question Am I One of The Elect? Using Im Rich! Rather, it is a doctrine that expresses classical Jewish orthodoxy, Muslim orthodoxy, and Christian orthodoxy with respect to the nature of God. So thank you Jeff S. I have read John Pipers paper on why he believes what he does and have seen many debates both for and against Calvinism. Could the person have simply avoided it and gone to someplace else without even making the comment? But never, ever did it raise anything except a good discussion. Thats why. But in doing so, I fear that people who might get a lot of benefit from Calvinism might be rejecting it for the wrong reasons. . And when you [Calvinists whom he is addressing] quote Charles Spurgeons words equating Calvinism and the gospel (a place where I believe the great Spurgeon got it wrong), you are not saying that those of us who do not subscribe to all the points of Calvinism fail to believe the gospel. The wonderful commentaries writ-ten by Adam Clarke, Charles Ellicott, and Daniel Whedon, for example, have not been published for years. He is noted for a broad view of what constitutes Protestant "orthodoxy." if man does NOT get to decided the level of his depravity (by knowing good from evil and choosing it) then God must decide FOR himwhich means, again, that not being as bad as you could be is irrelevant. I was the outside force that acted on the chalk by throwing it at you. View all posts by Joshua Wu Kai-Ming. I want people to love God and love their neighbors. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Enter your email address to follow this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. This has something that has really been important when writing, commenting, and moderating on ACFJ. Meyer 17. And the reason I identify that way is not because I want to convert people, but because I just didnt like all the hatred spewed out at the belief system. I understand that, and I certainly dont look down on you. As I wrote above, He uses His will and our wills to accomplish His ends. Because truth that doesnt work in the grey isnt really truth. There are sound Christian people out there who are willing to admit this. And what is an ocean but a multitude of single drops? That said, I am in the Non-Calvinist-non-Arminian camp (currently in a Mennonite church, but not an ethnic Mennonite), so I label myself Anabaptist to describe my neither-or in terms of Arminian/Calvinist. Conceding, of course, that this was an English translation, not Latin or French. Thank you for helping me out. I am not faulting anyone or saying that Calvinists are lazy. I was challenged to think, to serve, to teach and to grow. Ask a lot of questions. Wow! Their approach goes like this: You heretic! And requires even more general kindness and that continued diet in that warm kitchen. The response to an authoritarian and oppressive environment is not to create another one where Calvinism is not tolerated. To be honest most of the people who Ive bumped into that come across as dogmatic Calvinist are really regurgitating talking points. Here is where I part company with much of Christian ideology, and heres why: Earthquakes, tsunamis, category five tornadoes, decrepitude and death are all beyond our pay-grades to decide upon, much less get resolution from. The purpose of these posts is to build understanding, if thatis at allpossible. Maybe only a part of it is wrong, maybe the whole thing. Question: @netgrace was involved with Vineyard Duluth and did a great job. Press J to jump to the feed. 3:1-2) is saying that their are parts of the Word that are more elementary than others, not that those parts are any less important. As I think youre hinting here, a certain amount of theology (what proportion, I dont know) is in reality nothing more than a minority social science. We are glad that you do. Both had a very strong influence on the Nouvelle Thologie of the 20th century. I would be some place where I could state my beliefs openly. However, I have repeatedly heard calvinists call other believers heretics and blasphemers because they disagree with a pillar of calvinism (eg, they have a different definition of Gods sovereignity, or they believe Christ died for the sins of all). We were just glad that othersunderstood where we were coming from. As Ive said, the idea that evil exists at all with an all powerful and good God troubles me, and I do not have an answer for it. In addition to Dees remarks on unity, Id also like to add the following: we all accept the historic Christian creeds of the early church (Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian) and the church councils, which means we all accept the most important teachings on Christs Person, His Deity and resurrection, and the teachings on the Trinity. LOLGod works in mysterious and wonderful ways! The title suggests hes going to argue that something I dont agree with and Cavlinists historically do not believe is false. John Calvin (1509-1564) Michael Servetus (1511-1553) John Knox (c. 1513-1572) Teresa of Avila (1515-1582) Theodore Beza (1519-1605) Peter Baro (1534-1599) Caspar Coolhaes (1536-1615) Herman Witsius (1636-1708) Charles Borromeo (1538-1584) John of the Cross (1542-1591) Johannes Piscator (1546-1625) Richard Hooker (1554-1600) Here is a quick bio on Olson from Wikipedia. That means you should be able to find other believers who view the faith as you do. I DO struggle that when a woman is raped, that God chose not to prevent it. My theologys still up-in-the-air, and I dont care if it never comes down. CALVIN! Sydney Anglicans are Calvinist, Moore College is strongly Calvinist, as of course are the Presbyterians and some Baptists. 1. Ive not tried to convince anyone that they are sinful or wrong for not believing what I believe. To claim Were doing well so we must be righteous is banal theological incompetence. you'll occasionally see Calvinist doctrines pop up even among the occasional practitioner of any tradition. How to Resign from a Church There is too much work to be done. They are the ones who preach and teach and write as if five point "TULIP" Calvinism is part of the gospel itself and anyone who does not believe in it is only "almost Christian" or "Christian,. For a son to commit suicide? First of all we have to understand that what is affirmed- that God ordains whatsoever comes to pass from all eternity- is not unique to Reformed theology. This way of thinking goes against what Calvin said about freewill, the Westminster Confession of Faith says about freewill, and what every Calvinist Ive ever met says about freewill. Oy. There are Cals who admonish other Cals to stop behaving this way, sometimes in their in-house squabbles such as, Does it say milk of the word? That sounds contradictory to the importance that many place on the word. @wartwatch Not even the milk toast "We regret if anyone was offended"? If the person makes the comment because he/she believes its important that others should know that there are people who can be hurt by that conversation in real life, how should that affect the online discussion? We have to balance very carefully allowing some women to blow off steam vs being vitriolic in their hatred of all things male. (Okay, back into lurk..later, yall!). @ Headless Unicorn Guy: But, dee, how can any of us answer the deeper questions without Scripture? I never minded using it in the past because it was just a shorthand for my views on what it means to be saved by grace; I wasnt really arguing with anyone, and I figured as shorthand, it was alright. Never once, have I ever thought that these folks were not saved. However, Jesus entered our dimension and exists now outside of our dimension. However, Burk made the comment that the wrath of God was at the center of the Gospel, and later on a commentor stated that to not understand PSA is to believe a different Gospel. Can we not make allowance for Gods ways to be different from ours? Lin wrote: Church Discipline Can we not make allowance for Gods ways to be different from ours? We are only talking about it in this thread because someone brought it up as a challenge to Reformed theology. Have you forgotten his evangelism tours where there were great multitudes of rebaptisms? CALVIN! Probably about 0.27 Pinkie Pies worth. Thanks. But you didnt fall for it, elastigirl. Sovereign Grace Ministries I trust him because I understand his loving nature. Im so glad that God rescued me from my foray into Calvinism a couple of years ago. Ive tried to suss out how God can create everything that exists and still give us free will, and I dont get that either; but because God is bigger and more powerful than me, I believe that he did. Actually, Luther wrote more about election and predestination than did Calvin. Craig Keener 25. This never seemed hard to understand to me. I was blessed to be in some wonderful, intellectually stimulating churches. I never met Calvin myself, and as my History of Science supervisor at uni said nobody has ever devised a means to psychoanalyse the dead, so I can only guess at what went on in Calvins head. We bumped into a former leaderfrom Ed's church at Bent Tree. The same dynamic that caused Charles Darwin to say I am not a Darwinist and Karl Marx to say I am not a Marxist? We studied together, looked at what I think is a really good representation of what I (and my church) believes, and he rejects it. B. Warfield said, "The Calvinist, in a word, is the man who sees God. They probably have read other books about Calvin doctrines, but never the original. God is bigger than us and is beyond our understanding except for some basics. I found an interweb site a while back that had a downloadable version of Calvins Pentateuch (as I call it, by analogy rather than because it contains five of anything in particular). And God obviously held back from rescuing me for reasons that I do not yet understand. If its only might that makes right, right can be abused by caprice. I believe Sproul when he says that he knows of no Calvinist who, without any difficulty, welcomed what the Bible said about election, etc. On a site that deals with domestic abuse, it can very easily for discussion to descend into man hating. Otherwise, you get dismissed as a hayseed rube who is barely literate and not qualified to question Calvinism. My hubby got his first spiritual stirrings while watching a live performance of, Jesus Christ Superstar. I will post about this. And toss in a side dish of I cant be wrong. Carson D. James Kennedy J.I. Questions should be addressed to the male authority in ones life., 4) Christ died NOT for us, but to bring glory to the Father. They will tend to use hyperbole to make their point. To me, there is a huge difference. This would definitely color their opinion. list of non calvinist theologians. But I do think it is very important to not shut people down if they dont tow the party line. And further, since Calvinism declares that God elects never based on any acts or will of man, of what use is it even to distinguish between good and evil, even if man could know them? I read CS Lewis, Francis Schaeffer and many others. I am not wrong. Wife (whose abusive first husband was one of the biggest drug dealers in the Midwest before she divorced him) was my Lamaze coach. Its sobering that these are the very things that will be withheld from me in many church settings because doing is reflexively conflated with striving and I need to learn to rest in Daddy/Mummy Gods unconditional love. Its very difficult and exhausting having a conversation with people who claim you never, ever get their views correct. We can just debate doctrine. I dont want to speak out of turn here, but I wonder if the word calvinist should be banned, like the word bitter, due to the frequency with which it is taken out of context and/or the extent to which it means different things to different people. Of course Calvinism is not the only theological construct that has been used to hurt people. When I look at myself, I think of my own salvation from a TULIP perspective. people who call themselves Calvinist have never really read Calvin. And I pretty much agree with everything you say here. Then I discovered I was not, and it was like a moment of deliverance from a mighty weight that had been pressing me down. A lot of people (hostile atheists especially) like to frame the whole ordeal as in, How mean or wrong it was of God to make that forbidden fruit tree when he knew Adam and Eve would eat from it, but the guy pointed out thats the not the way to look at it. "Pastor John C. Hagee is the founder and Senior Pastor of Cornerstone Church in San Antonio, Texas, a non-denominational evangelical church with more than 20,000 active members." (sacornerstone.org) His style is serious and intellectual. Hes already won me to his side. Look for them. One section was exploring happiness. Please continue to dialog. That is what total and depravity mean these days, after all. Agree that you cant really know, truth, and as such you can have NO basis for denying their doctrine. Calvinists are Christians and Calvinists and non-Calvinist Christians share a multitude of common ideas and beliefs. It is, imo, impossible to pin any of this down in some sort of neat and easy formula, but the Lord knows, we (humans) keep trying! Had childhood friends who were Nazarene and Presbyterian and myself., Plymouth Brethren. Lots of the Calvinists I have come across on the internet the past 13 15 years think you have to have advanced college degrees, spend ten years in school, be fluent in Hebrew and Koine Greek, have an exhaustive knowledge of the patristic writings, etc., to not only truly grasp Calvinism, but in their eyes, to be permitted to even begin to criticize it. Wesley and Whitefield came from opposite sides of the argument and yet I understand were able to have tolerable, if not friendly, relationships surely an encouragement to everyone else? Since so many Calvinists believe everything in this life is decreed, it would mean that God decreed you to write/create this blog from before the foundations of the world, so how can they object to you doing so? whose beliefs have little to do with either Calvin or Arminius. Infused? Other authors, some who have made extensive contributions in the fields of biblical and theological studies, include Kenneth Mathews, Tremper Longman III, Walt Kaiser, Chuck Quarles, Stan Porter, Malcolm Yarnell III, and David Dockery. So in other contexts your Calvinism/steak analogy is right as far as I know. As you know, it was not written by Calvin. The assuredness of the approach is arrogant. Three of their principal concerns were believer's baptism, sectarian withdrawal from society, and religious liberty. But something has changed in the last number of years. When you get called a heretic,"barely a Christian" or whatever, think of it this way. *If we disagree, let us disagree on what we see in Scripture, not on our own sense of right and wrong. I will say that as a fairly new Lutheran, I have REALLY been blessed by the attitude that as a woman, I am relating directly to Christ and am responsible for my own theology. Im pretty sure that Calvin doesnt either, but Ill check on it. Again, living in a 3 dimensional world, that makes little sense. In other words, the Calvinists want you to agree that YOU have a FINITE mind and could be wrong. Kentucky. Jeff Swith respect, I have never asked anyone to shut up. Hi guys, great posts, esp (from a personal point of view) from Jeff S, TW, Nick Bulbeck and others its been such a long thread I cant remember them all . He is the primary cause of everything that comes to pass, the power supply for all force; secondary causes are always dependent for their power on the primary source of power.. But disagreeing with someone is not the same thing. If this is so, its really astounding. I myself am a man, and know all too well, the sins and short-comings of mankind. I did not but I definitely got the immigrant part and am proud of m Russian heritage. Itook to reading Calvin, Sproul, Edwards, Grudem, Piper, et al. Hes describing man, not God. Its more that the molecule is not outside of his authority. There are 5 major points of disagreement between Calvinists and Arminians. I didnt say childish. Thank you for letting me know what you think Jesus meant. In this video, Jesse Morrell refutes the Calvinist doctrine that God is the author of sin. He "knew" that only the infants of covenantal believers go to heaven. This is also (imo) true for many, many people. Even if we say we agree in the fundamentals/indisputables Calvinism makes it clear, and both Jeffs have admitted, that there is no human agency capable of understanding truth fully. Besides, you have a long way to go to be considered mean. This can apply to spiritual things, to living life with God, Jesus, Holy Spirit. So, does God elect people who are only a little totally depraved as opposed to those who are totally totally depraved? Pg 81 So I Must Be! as the indicator. Buuuuuut the problem with this is that trying to pin a Calvinist down on what doctrines they actually believe is like trying to hold a wriggling cat using hands stuck in oven mitts (not that wed be putting the cat in the overgross, and, uh, cruel). There is nothing wrong with being emotional about it, either, except that we need to not use it to demean the other. I actually believe that part of our problem lies in the human drive to tie up our theology into a logically consistent package, thus filling in, with human reason, places where the Scripture leaves spaces. I would more readily believe it of idiots like Mahaney, but, again, no one is infallible. I'd also add Thomas Cranmer to that group (leader of the English Reformation, author of the Book of Common Prayer, and most of the 39 Articles) 7.